TQ101 Episode 1
Of Terminator-controlled Cars and Reality
Stereo Sound
Mono Sound
Episode Transcript
On today’s episode of terminal questions 101, we have Scott talking about pretty much the birth of terminal questions 101. Today's show starts now!
Alright Scott, today we are going to be talking about the very questions that actually brought this entire show about. Now it has already been talked about, that is true, and some people might argue about that because the entire point is that i'm supposed to learn something, but it was so interesting -this entire topic- that it started the idea for this show in your head. So I thought it was definitely worth going back to. Now-
Scott
Definitely. You know you've forgotten it by now.
Ken
Oh, Pfffft. Naaah, some of it. (laughs) I might have been bragging about the knowledge for a while now to other people. Now you might be wondering what is this topic? Well this topic is actually something that came up while watching Terminator 3. Now I've always looked at Terminator 3 as an okay movie but a rather... silly entry into Terminator. It seemed goofy with things like self driving cars and crazy out-of-control everything lady and it just struck me as weird. And then one day I'm talking to Scott here and I go hey Scott this is why I think this is silly and what did you tell me about this Scott?
Scott
I told you in fact driving cars are possible.
Ken
Now obviously you might need a minute here to sit and recover your composition because your mind was just blown that a car can actually drive itself.
Scott
In doubt, ladies and gentlemen, it is true. Your car might be able to drive itself.
Ken
Now... the premise behind this, let's -let's go a little in depth here because obviously I don't know much about cars in the first place. I mean it might be shocking to some – a dude knows nothing about cars. Well, I do know some about cars – I can change a tire, I can drive my car, and I can fill it with gas! So I mean, you know, I know a little bit. It's not like I'm completely clueless about it, but I would also never imagine that a car could be remote piloted by a robot! So lets-lets-lets delve into this here because I would imagine that not every car in existence could be remote piloted by a robot, correct?
Scott
This is correct, lets make this absolutely clear. The scene in Terminator 3 is ninety nine percent bull. The cars that are used in that scene, the way it's done , et cetera et cetera– can not happen. Yeah, so, just take that we're getting that done with. All the nerds that are sitting there going “oh wait, I'm going to rage out on this at the end,” sorry, your not.
Ken
Oh they will.
Scott
Most cars you see on the road today can't. Theres just no possible way. The steering system has no way of steering itself, uhm, a lot of the vehicles their over ten years old so their still running off of a cable system for the gas pedal - but some newer vehicles today, the way the electronics are run, the way the car is controlled, yes you could actually program it to drive itself. Google's been doing it for years.
Ken
Alright so, what exactly would we need -specifically- for the car to actually pull off something like we see in Terminator 3?
Scott
Well, originally when computerized cars started out it was the component on the vehicle – say the carburetor, the throttle body, uh, the speed sensors on the wheels, uh, the indicator telling the car what gear your in was all just information being sent to the computer. Then the computer records it. Then the computer might make a suggestion to change something. Now-a-days, it's the computer goes to the component, the component tells the computer whats going on, the computer then tells the component what to do. Your gas pedal is no longer you push on a pedal, it pushes a cable or a rod and the valve on your carburetor or throttle body opens telling the vehicle to speed up. Now it's a computer sends power to a sensor on the gas pedal. As you push the gas pedal this sensor tells the computer how hard you're pushing and how much percent of the pedal you are pushing. You know, so you're pushing the gas pedal to forty percent. That goes back to the computer, the computer then tells the motor on the valve speed up 40 percent. So therefore, if a computer program got into the computer and was telling the computer what to do, the computer could now tell the car you know, in this case the gas pedal, speed up forty percent, let off forty- you know, so on and so forth.
A lot of vehicles now-a-days days don’t have hydraulic power steering. It is you know, an electric motor attached to the steering wheel that assists you while you're turning. Well, this is also connected to the computer and the computer is involved in every aspect of its operation so it is not too far to say that an evil virus reprogramming the computer could take that over and this could turn itself. GM actually had a problem with this back in 2006 with Pontiacs because the electric motor was failing and locking up, so therefore all the vehicles were just instantly– no matter what speed you were going- turning to the left.
Ken
I can see where that might be a little bit of a problem.
Scott
Just a tiny one.
Ken
Unless you were in like a Nascar race, then it wouldn't really bother you at all
Scott
Fun side note: Well it didn't effect enough vehicles to -ah- to warrant a mandatory recall. And its every system on the car theses days – the headlights, the turn signals, your brake pedal- everything has the sensors and actuators. The computer I use at work to scan a car now has the ability to turn all these things on and off, and that's just me sitting there with a hand held scanner plugged into the dashboard.
Ken
Now that's pretty much the same kind of idea as whats going on with the (uh) On-stars and Car-nets and all that stuff right?
Scott
Yeah
Ken
When they have access to do things like unlock your car and turn your car on and all that good stuff.
Scott
I-i-it's all within reason. I mean, if Terminator 3 came out now, it-there would be no question about it at least technically-technological wise it's completely possible. A lot of people don't realize their car comes standard with a cellphone in the computer. Just because you don't have On-star doesn't mean that that phone is not there.
Ken
I did not realize that.
Scott
Yeah. I mean, you know, now their essentially internet hubs. You know, we got the blue-tooth satellite on the roof-
Ken
Mm-hm
Scott
You got the cellphone in the computer, the cellphone that's inside the dashboard- you know- the blue-tooth hubs that your cellphone connects to so that it can connect to, you know, the radio and media center and now your cellphones hooked up -you got the internet connected its just one logical step after another. Hybrid vehicles, they are completely computerized. There isn't really a single hardwire point besides the brake pedal in those vehicles... and possibly the parking brake, but starting in 2011 the parking brake is becoming electric.
Ken
Of all the things you think you would want to leave as a mechanical system, the parking brake is the one that I would think you would really want the most, because I mean the only time your really using a parking brake unless your normal brake doesn't work and you want to park... is if when your in an emergency situation.
Scott
It- but it's not an emergency brake anymore, it's a parking brake.
Ken
Oh, true. (While Scott talks) Completely stopped tires will do that.
Scott
Because too may dumb people were turning it on thinking it was the end all save all of the emergency brake and the car started sliding out of control. Parking doesn't have enough pressure t-the car can override it.
Ken
Dang sneaky cars plotting our demise
Scott
It is ridiculous a lot, and a lot of this stuff is essentially government mandated. This computerized generation started because of the EPA with the output of NOx and hydrocarbons and all the other fun chemical stuff in the exhaust port that I can't remember off the top of my head – only three of them are important, NOx, hydrocarbons, uh, and the other one – and so they determined that all these emissions had to be reduced. So therefore, every car manufacturer came up with his own computer system. My favorite one was Ford's electronically con- er, emissions- Electronic Emissions Computer, or as we all call it in the industry EEC. Uh, five generations in under three years.
Ken
Yee-haw
Scott
I know, right? (while Ken talks) This is 1987!
Ken
Technology does have that habit.
Scott
Then 1997 it was required that they all use a standard communication, a standard protocol so you know any mechanic anywhere with one computer can read these cars, because this point we're talking each car manufacturer requires a three thousand dollar computer. Well, they came out with what they call OBD2 – On Board Diagnostics 2 – that is still the computer model today. Now it's called Can and Can 2, but it's OBD Can 2. It's just additions to the OBD2 system so with that it all became standardized, all one language – GO – and then as regulations have become more important with uh, gas mileage and hydrocarbon output and NOx output. They just keep increasing these controls and increasing these controls so the more computerized and electronic the cars become because we can't trust you -the user- to do it right the cars got to do it for you and now like forty percent of the operation of the vehicle is automatic, done by the computer. You know, back in the day you used to have to prime the car, adjust the choke, you know dude add lead to the gasoline, decrease led in the gasoline and no now ninety percent of people jump in their car, start it up, put it in drive, don't even notice the sensor on the dashboard is letting them know one of their tires is flat.
Ken
That is very true, sad as it is. It is very true.
Scott
Oh I don't know how many times people will come into the shop and gone “Oh that's what that light meant?” Well, if you didn't notice the light did you not notice the obviously flat tire?
Ken
Well, sometimes those sensors do lie. At least in this day and age.
Scott
Oh yes, yes. All the time, I hate those sensors. (while Ken's talking) Most retarded thing ever.
Ken
I know at one point mine was trying to tell me that my brake pads were shot and they were brand new brake pads.
Scott
Oh yeah, love that one. Ugh! And that's the thing! Thats the- stuff to tell you that is the exact stuff that can let the car drive itself because that is a sensor on the wheels saying “hey this wheel is going forty miles an hour, this wheel is going forty miles an hour, this wheels going forty miles an hour, this ones doing thirty-eight there must be something wrong.” And so, you know, there the car knows exactly how fast it's going. I've already described how the car can speed itself up, uh, the ABS brake system allows the car to activate the brakes at any point in time however it deems fit. So there the car can stop itself. Now just hope you got one with electronics assisted steering wheel so you can steer.
Ken
And can the computer itself in the cars at least theoretically -I mean we don't wanna, we don't need to go into super details here because we don't need people trying to hack cars or whatever but theoretically speaking the cars already got a phone inside of it basically to begin with, so you could in theory if you were like the Terminator, using a cellphone network actually gain access to the computer?
Scott
Yep.
Ken
Which in turn would let you control all the fun stuff like turning and driving and then feedback the GPS so you know where it is.
Scott
The easiest one for that is vehicles equipped with On-star because the phone is on and enabled all the time. Uhm. Not every vehicle comes equipped with the cellphone modem in it, but most of them do -especially your higher end ones. Uh, but you know just for the sake of easy and to prove the point an On-star equipped vehicle could in fact have somebody dial in over that phone, hack the vehicle. Mostly what their gonna be able to do right off the bat is access the basic stuff. They could theoretically start the vehicle convi-uh, most vehicles now still have a manual park, which means the park is controlled by a cable on the shifter so you know they'd be able to start the vehicle, turn on the lights, rev up the engine, make lots of noise, turn on all the radios and what-not. Uhm, questionable whether or not they would actually be able to get the vehicle to move. While the vehicle is driving? Yes, somebody could theoretically hack into the vehicle and create all kinds of wonderful havoc while the vehicle is in drive. Uhm, has it happened before? Yeah, people were hacking and turning on uh, you know the panic alarms-
Ken
M hm
Scott
-that's on the key fob. Uh, other than that no, nobody’s gotten into the system.
Ken
Right, this – it's nothing we should necessarily be super worried about right now but I mean-
Scott
Oh, no! If-
Ken
As far as a, you know, cybernetic robot from the future with liquid metal skin and a hard (while Scott talks) robotic steel innards.
Scott
Oh yeah, no, it was essentially my understand that she sent nanites into the CPUs and was rewriting code as it went through that wonderful CGI shot of the computer.
Ken
M hm.
Scott
Uhm, no. No... it's just, again theoretically, hypothetically this is possible.
Ken
Which (while Scott talks) even at that point.
Scott
Is it gonna happen? Will it happen? No not at all.
Ken
Even at that point of just being theoretically possible, I mean that's-
Scott
Yeah.
Ken
At least to me that's pretty impressive because well, I don't know a lot about cars so of course it would be impressive to me but, it's just (while Scott talks) crazy.
Scott
Again, like I said, the hardest one is the steering. You know, right now no vehicle is you turn a wheel and then a motor actually turns but their coming up with them, their only a year or two off you know but again.
Ken
(while Scott talks) Not nearly as hard as flying cars
Scott
I doubt any time soon. Maybe in 2018 we'll have a problem with hackers causing cars to do demolition derbies down the highway but at the moment it's not a thing it's just possible.
Ken
Well you know, you gotta start somewhere right?
Scott
Yeah (while Ken talks) and I blew your mind that night.
Ken
Can't – you can't have people. You really, really can't have people be in control of flying cars, I mean that's just going to be a catastrophe.
Scott
I am actually one of the people who uh, I dread the day. I don't even like it now but I dread the day we get those you know Time Cop and what-not where you know, the- I Robot where you jump in and just say home and the car drives you home. No, I-I am sorry I called it when they started putting the electric steering on the Pontiacs and what-not and the Chevies and went “You know that's gonna end badly” and then sure enough my sister went out and bought one of these cars and four years later got a notice “Your car might not be steering properly. Please come to our dealership, spend fifteen hundred dollars and have this fixed.” And, three months later her – you know, it got to the point where every now and then you'd start the car and it wouldn't turn left or right. You'd have to shut the car down and start it back up.
Ken
That is pretty bad
Scott
And -and I... No I don't want to be in one of these things when all of a sudden window performs an illegal operation and must shut down.
Ken
Yeah, thats- (while Scott talks) would not end well.
Scott
No! No no no! No! All of a sudden you know robots decide to rise up and take over the world and because I'm a guy who knows something about something my – or might, I should say, know something about something – my car all of a sudden careens into a tree and it was a malfunction. No!
Ken
It would be a great way of covering it up...
Scott
Exactly! See? No! I'm good. I think I will stick to my -you know- twenty year old truck that has manual everything and if anything overrides it it's lack of maintenance.
Ken
M hm. Of course I mean, you know, lack of maintenance is gonna be an issue no matter how you go about things.
Scott
Yeah that's the thing too. What happens when these things are fifteen, twenty years old and-
Ken
(while Scott talks) Nobody is around to understand it?
Scott
John has bought it from Bill who bought it from Susie, but John decided to sell it – er uh, Bill decided to sell it because it needs this three thousand part and screw that the car is only worth two thousand dollars. John thinks he's getting a great idea and all of a sudden kills four people on the way home because the duck bill inverter just did not perform properly, you know? Ugh!
Ken
Of course, I imagine you would still get some of that even without all the electronical components and controlling things.
Scott
Well, yeah.
Ken
Although, I would also imagine that for the most part a lot of things not working in a normal car would cause it to not work period, unless it was something like the brake line or something like that... but you know, I'm no expert on cars that's obviously, it's why we had this conversation in the first place.
Scott
Uh, one that's – one that's been getting a lot of you know, notice lately is that the Hybrids. Everybody thought they were great and beautiful and don't get me wrong it -not- their very nice vehicles. The Prius surprisingly has a decent amount of get up and go once the motor kicks in. Uhm, my problem is I really feel like I'm driving a golf cart when I'm driving those cars in electric mode. (while Ken talks) It's very off-putting.
Ken
Well that's kinda basically what it is really.
Scott
It is, essentially yes it's, when you strip it down to the basics it's the same exact system. Uh, but, golf carts and hybrids much like the golf carts they were designed off of, you gotta replace the batteries every couple of years. Well, the golf cart is like six twelve volt batteries you know, okay six hundred bucks your good. A Prius is a different matter entirely. That is a giant battery which takes up most of the area under the back seat and it costs about three thousand dollars, maybe five depending on which area your in and how many hybrids are being sold in that area, and all a sudden we have a lot of hybrids being put up for sale because the owners don't wanna spend five thousand dollars to replace a battery pack.
Ken
I think that's relatively understandable.
Scott
Or a lot of them being traded in for this same reason. So we got a lot of dumb idiots buying hybrids wondering why it never goes into electric mode.
Ken
Yeah, well, you know new technology always has the learning curve to it too. Now, I don't know if you would necessarily know the answer to this one but it did just pop into my head and I'm a little curious.
Scott
Sup?
Ken
How well, assuming that everything in say Terminator 3 – all them cop cars and all that. Assuming they had all the necessary things to actually be controlled remotely and all that good stuff.
Scott
Yep.
Ken
How well would that actually hold up to all of the bumping and crashing and stuff that was going on in there?
Scott
Well, without having the scene directly in front of me to play off of I'm going to do this off of memory, so forgive me audience if I miss a point or two.
Ken
It has been a while since anybody's seen that-
Scott
Yeah
Ken
-movie so nobody should take offense.
Scott
The first one- the first one I would like to point out is the firetruck. The firetruck in no way shape or form could ever be remotely operated and I believe-
Ken
The firetruck I believe was driven by the T800
Scott
-but didn't at some point they get out and the truck take over or did the truck crash?
Ken
The truck crashed.
Scott
Okay, I thought at some point the truck was driving itself. Uhm...
Ken
Because I believe she took him out of the truck with the... big crane thing.
Scott
See I thought he was driving it- anyways! Firetrucks can't drive themselves, too old school. Uhm, now the cop cars, if we say the cop cars are able to drive themselves – hand on a second I need to take a drink of water.
Ken
Because I believe there was two or three cop cars and I want to say an ambulance maybe?
Scott
Yes, ambulance as of today could not drive itself. The steering system in those trucks its-its mainly their so heavy their old school, because new school hasn't bothered upgrading them yet, so that would not be able to steer itself. Uh, accelerating, decelerating possibly but shifting and steering not even close – can't do it. Cop cars, there are a few out there where the cop cars could technically steer themselves and... and they would hold up a decent amount and, you know, their designed to be better than your normal car. Uh, you know the states come up with their own regulations on it. The infamous police package. Uh, but the new Taurus's and what-not that they have, their, their a little bit better, a little bit heavier than your standard automobile so they would hold up a decent amount. I'd say they'd probably make it through about half to three quarters of that particular chase. Uh, ramming into a fire truck or crane truck would most likely instantly destroy the car, or at least make it so it was limping down the road and not speeding down the road. Uhm, wasn't there a pickup or two-
Ken
I believe...
Scott
-in that chase other than the one John Connor was driving?
Ken
I believe they were in the pickup. I believe the T800 was in the firetruck. I believe they were getting chased by, like I said, two or three cop cars and an ambulance, and the new model terminator chick was in the crane truck. Which, I don't – have you ever done anything with a crane truck enough to know if that thing would have held up as good as it did?
Scott
Oh, uh, the train truck and the firetruck are two vehicles, like that crane truck yeah there isn't much besides hitting it with a train that would stop it from going down the road. Uhm, my biggest question with the crane truck would be whether or not it could maintain the amount of speed that they were doing in the car chase.
Ken
While breaking through the buildings and all of that good stuff?
Scott
Uhm, but breaking through the buildings and whatnot in the- that things a fairly sturdy uh... fairly sturdy uh, crane so you know it could do some damage. I don't know if it could make it through every single one of those, I would think at some point it would hit something hard enough to twist the crane around and possible crane the vehicle over. Uhm, yeah no that ambulance is way too old to be controlled by anything other than a physical human being. Uhm, but...
Ken
I mean, at this point I would imagine most of those vehicles would be too old to do it. I mean this movie was made, ah...
Scott
(while Ken talks) Oh yeah, no. When this movie was-
Ken
A couple years ago at least anyways but I mean, just the concept itself that it's even remotely possible is crazy.
Scott
Yeah when this movie was made the uh, what we call fly-by-wire accelerators where- you know- the computer is controlling the accelerator on the vehicle was just becoming standardized. Uhm, the electric steering thing was just starting and, uh, so you know most of it was brand new if not theoretical so you know, this scene entirely impossible in its time. Uh, and actually watching this right now the crane, at least for the first half of the chase, yeah the crane could do that. Uhm, going this fast with the crane swinging around and the outriggers out, I doubt it. The cop cars ramming the pickup truck is entirely within reason for these cop cars.
Ken
M hm.
Scott
The Ford Crown Vic is a he- one very nice vehicle and it's essentially a pickup truck frame. It's the F150 pickup frame with a car body thrown on top of it.
Ken
Hm.
Scott
So uhm, yeah.
Ken
Interesting.
Scott
When we get to the point where the crane is running over all the concrete barricades while smashing Arnold through the office building, the office building is possible. Uhm, construction site accidents prove that repeatedly. The crane driving over all those concrete barriers and still maintaining the level of speed it does, no. Absolutely not, that thing would be to almost a stop at the end of it. So... And also the U-turn this firetruck pulls fairly improbable.
Ken
Alright. Well I mean obviously there's going to be some movie magic to make it more exciting but...
Scott
Oh yeah. No, no, in my movie goer opinion this is a great little car chase, it's very fun.
Ken
Ah yeah, it's very action packed.
Scott
I love the fact that even though I wasn't surprised at how he was gonna end it, I still love that when he drops the crane ball and it hooks into the uh... manhole cover and you know, just flips that thing end over end – that was some impressive CGI.
Ken
That was.
Scott
Uh, but from a mechanical perspective, (chuckles) no.
Ken
Yeah, I kind of didn't figure it would work just like that, but you know I'm not gonna complain because it's a movie and its fun, but that the one part about remote controlling all those cars always just made me peg the entire mo- I mean its not the only thing obviously that made me think of it that way but that movie itself just always struck me as the silliest of all the Terminator movies. Whereas the other ones are even remotely trying to be serious, that one is just like “I'm going to remote control cars, I'm going to remote control Terminators...”
Scott
M hm.
Ken
“I'm gonna smash peoples heads into toilets and stuff and it always struck me as just silly, but the fact itself that it's theoretically possible to really control a car by just a computer... pretty impressive. I'm not gonna lie it's pretty impressive. Now we got about a minute left here before we hit our time limit so-
Scott
Oh no time limit!
Ken
Yeah I know...
Scott
What are we going to talk about!?
Ken
It's terrible things.
Scott
Sorry, I had to.
Ken
(Chuckles) Well I'd like to thank you for sharing all of this and taking the time to share it,I mean granted-
Scott
Yeah
Ken
-of course you wanted to. It was part of (while Scott talks) the idea behind it.
Scott
And again, like I said, I feel necessary to point out most of this is just hypothetical and logically leading this system to this system to that system. Uhm, nobody as of yet has actually successfully controlled a car through a cellphone or a laptop or anything like that even though scientists are working diligently around the clock to do this, uhm, but cars driving themselves is actually nothing new. Google's been doing it for a few years with their robotic car. Uh, Chevy has a robot suburban that it's been testing. You know, cars now-a-days correct steering within lanes, uh, so you know, just something to think about. Evil robot from the future could do that to your brand new Mercedes, or Lincoln.
Ken
Well, I would like to remind you the listener that if you enjoyed this conversation and would like to hear more about it or cars in general, to leave a comment. Let us know if you have any specific questions about this that you would like answered, again just leave a comment and let us know and we very well, if the request is enough, can create another session between me and Scott here so that you can go through and learn more about it.
Scott
I did leave it very generalized, so please if- you know- you do have detailed questions you want, feel free to leave it. I will attempt to answer it to the best of my ability. The professional amateur that I am.
Ken
Yep, and again, if any of this information happens to be wrong or whatever, try not to hold it against anybody – we're all human. It's still learning in my book, and learning is good as far as I'm concerned. So, I would like to thank you for listening, and that would conclude this episode of Terminal Questions 101.
Scott
Thanks for listening.